John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the duct tape marketing podcast is brought to you by the Gain Grow, Retain podcast, hosted by Jeff Brunsbach and Jay Nathan brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network gain grow retain is built to inspire SaaS and technology leaders who are facing day to day. Challenges of scaling Jeff and Jay share conversations about growing and scaling subscription businesses with a customer first approach, check out all the episodes. Recently, they did one on onboarding, such a key thing when you wanna get going, keep and retain those clients. So listen to Gain, Grow, Retain wherever you get your podcast.

John Jantsch (00:48): And welcome to another episode of the duct tape marketing podcast. This is John Jan and my guest today is Alex San Filippo. He is the host of the top rated podcast called podcasting made simple. He's also the found of podcasts.com a software company focus specifically on the podcast industry, Alex and his team have created popular services like pod match, a service that matches podcast guests and hosts together for interviews and podcast. So P a project management tool that helps podcasters keep up with their episode releases. So guess what we're gonna to talk about today,

Alex Sanfilippo (01:22): Alex? I'm guessing it's gonna be podcasting, but I just have a hunch.

John Jantsch (01:25): We're gonna talk to podcasters. Yeah. Welcome to the

Alex Sanfilippo (01:28): Show me, you know, I'm gonna tell a quick little story here. I'm gonna, I'm gonna hand it over to you cuz it is your show. But when I was getting ready to start podcasting, I looked up podcast episodes about podcasting and I actually found your show. It was an episode that you did with John Lee Dumas and it was titled everything you need to know about podcasting. It was actually May 1st, 2019 still holds up today. I went back and re-listened to it, but he talked about getting your hands, dirty, learning everything in podcasting, and you completely agreed with that. And that really shaped me as a podcaster early on. So I'm kinda a product of what you've done on this show. So thank you again for having me. This is like the biggest honor ever to be here, so thanks.

John Jantsch (02:02): Oh wow. Well, I, I always love to hear that a few words that I, uh, bale, you know, sometimes help people. So that's awesome. So, so let's hear a little bit about your journey. I mean, why focused on podcasting and podcast tools?

Alex Sanfilippo (02:15): Yeah. So before this, I have a long background in the aerospace industry and before somebody's listening thinks I was somebody cool. I wasn't an astronaut. I wasn't a fighter pilot it and I wasn't even a real engineer. I just worked behind a computer and, and basically ran operations for an organization. And I was working all way to a senior position and that company thoroughly enjoyed it. One thing about the aerospace industry and I'm not dogging the company I was with because they were a really nice group of people, but it's a very competitive space. And after I think that year 12, I was like, you know what? I think I want some sort of change. And I think I wanna try being an entrepreneur cuz as a kid, I had a few interactions as an entrepreneur and I was like, I think I wanna go back to that.

Alex Sanfilippo (02:53): I really like that feeling. And so for me, John, not knowing what I was doing as an entrepreneur, I was like, I'm gonna start a podcast and talk to people who have successfully left a nine to five job and moved into some sort of entrepreneurship role. I'm like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna start doing that. And something I realized right when I got into podcasting, I mean, I just referenced your episode. Like that was free. I didn't pay to listen to that. It's such an abundant mindset area. Like, I mean this part of the world, I can't even call it. Like even like I sort of marketing, like it's just like the channel of podcasting for like lack of better term is just a great group of people. And I just saw this abundant mindset in the industry and I was like, you know what, I'm gonna go all in on this. Like I love this. So I stepped into podcasting, did a good job growing my show at that time. And the first chance, like I got to develop software for the industry, I jumped all in on that.

John Jantsch (03:41): So, you know, you mentioned something as I listen to you talk about it. I think one of the best ways, best motivations for getting into podcasting is something you just mentioned. I, you know, it's, it almost started as a research project for you right? Talking to people. Same for me. I started my first couple episodes were with authors who were way more established than me, but I, I knew I could give them something a little bit of an audience and, but I really wanted to talk to them. You know, it wasn't about like who's listening or can I attract advertisers? It just became a vehicle. And I think that's a really pure reason to start is,

Alex Sanfilippo (04:11): You know, I really think it is because here's the one reason for that. And it's the same for you. I'm willing to bet. You're curious. So you ask really good questions. Even if you don't have experience as an interviewer, you still ask good questions cuz you actually want to know the answer versus just what's the next question I can ask this guy, right? Or this lady like how do I continue the conversation? No, it's, you're truly curious. And that makes for a great episode for somebody to listen to.

John Jantsch (04:34): I can't tell you how many free coaching sessions I have acquired over the years from doing this. I've definitely had people on the show. I'm like, they really, really know how to do that. I wanna know how to do that. And Hey, maybe somebody will get some benefits,

Alex Sanfilippo (04:46): John guys like you or I ever get the bill from all these coaches we've had on we're in some serious trouble.

John Jantsch (04:53): So, so, you know, here's the burning question. We'll get this out of the way. I, you know, there are billions of podcasts now. I don't know what the real number is, but I'm just gonna go with billions. Should I start a podcast?

Alex Sanfilippo (05:04): Yeah, I think so. And you know, you had a great episode with Dan Franks, uh, on February 23rd, uh, 2022 that covered this question really well. Like is it too late to start a podcast? I say, no, it's not. As long as you don't go general. So I'm gonna add that to it. If you say I want to be the next and I hate that everyone gives this example, I'm gonna do it. You already know what name I'm gonna say, but if you wanna be the next Joe Rogan, it's just not going to work. And I don't say it to be negative or mean to anybody, but you've gotta have a very narrow, specific focus and not even go after all of the listeners, I'm doing air quotes there, but you know, all the listeners, the idea is to really hone in on what you're looking for. And if that's the case, I say starting a podcast is a great move for just about anybody or any company.

John Jantsch (05:44): Well, yeah, and I think one of the ways to really narrow it is, you know, I tell business owners all the time. I mean, who's your target market start interviewing them. Yeah. That'll be a great show because it'll be great content for you. And who knows. You might actually stumble across somebody who could become a client. So it doesn't have to be, as you said, you don't have to say, I'm gonna take on the world of marketing. You know, even, I mean it, it can be really in your

Alex Sanfilippo (06:06): Backyard, you know, something else really interesting that you just mentioned there, I've never had this happen, but I used to hire a lot of people like in aerospace, like one of my primary things was hiring people for, it was a massive organization and I never once had this happen. But if somebody said, oh, I learned how to do marketing. Let's just use that as an example, because I started a podcast and interview people about it. You can check it out here. I would've hired that person on the spot. Even if the podcast never had a listener, because that means they were really devoted to learning the craft in a way that I'd never seen anyone else do it. So something as simple as that, like think about like creatively, what a podcast could be for you. That's one example that I just thought of off the top of my head. Like there's many other applications I could have used there as well.

John Jantsch (06:44): So many people are familiar with this format that you and I are doing, cuz obviously they're listeners and I've been interviewing people for years. What, what are some kind of out of the box formats that you're seeing people do or even applications? I, I ran me the other day. They said that they've got, you know, a hundred employees and they're distributed now and this just, they do a podcast that is purely an internal vehicle communication vehicle. So what are some things?

Alex Sanfilippo (07:09): Yeah, that one is really smart. I think we're gonna see more and more of that. Even with small companies, cuz it just keeps the culture. Right? Everyone's hearing it every day. That's a smart one, one that's like, I've not seen a lot of John, but I really wanna start saying more of is more of the, the story type podcast. Like right now you see like the big ones, like wander is a big network that does this. Yeah. They have like business awards as one of I really enjoy or NPR and it's more like a story it's got sound effects in it. I would love to see somebody do something more like that, but not such, such a big network, right? With just a few employees, maybe doing something like that. I think there's a lot of room for growth there because the engagement is really solid on those.

Alex Sanfilippo (07:44): But that's one type of podcast I'd actually love to hear more of now. I'm not ever gonna undersell the power of interview. Like this is the, in my mind, the most powerful form of podcasting. But the other thing is solo casting. And John, you probably know this about it. It can be hard to listen to. If they're long episodes, they've got to be short, they've gotta have one single topic and the person has to have the right cadence. I've done a few solo episodes, but if I can be fully, fully transparent here, I think I talk too fast. So I think some people are like, oh my gosh, it's so much information. But if you get somebody that has the right cadence with their voice and they can keep it really precise and really short, I think that there's a lot of room in the solo world too.

John Jantsch (08:22): You know, it's funny. And of course this is gonna sound like I'm patting myself on the back, but I, I do. I don't know how often once a month maybe a solo show and I get more feedback from those from people because I Doty, typically take a topic and just teach on it. And so I do think sometimes the, the listener who's out, it's like, oh, that's, you know, a different thing. They get, they feel like they take something away. Sometimes these interviews, you get great actionable things. Sometimes you just hear people kind of, you know, talking to each other.

Alex Sanfilippo (08:50): No, I I'd love to ask you a question on that because you've got a bit of a hybrid nut model. Now you've been interviewing since 2005 on this show, but then at some point you introduce the, the solo episodes. Do you find, like, you're saying you get more feedback on 'em. Do you find that the audience also learns from those? Like, is it a good model to have like the, the hybrid? Is that something you're gonna stick with?

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John Jantsch (10:05): I think I'm gonna stick with it because it, because of the feedback, you know, if I wasn't getting positive affirmation, I'd probably say, oh, you know, I'm shedding listeners, you know, by doing those. But, but I don't think exact that's the case. In fact though, they get downloaded more too. So I think that, I think that it's, you know, I don't know if it's an interruption to the people that are used to, you know, the normal thing. But I do think partly because of my style is I, I, I treat them almost like works many workshops. So, you know, I do give a lot of actionable things and you know, so hopefully people do, but whether, you know, that's something I want to dive into. I is some of the, you know, the run of show, you know, kind of stuff. Um, I, I always think, find it funny when I look at somebody, you know, you go on iTune and you listen the length of all their shows and like one show's five minutes, one's 92 minutes. And I, I wonder if, you know, we get comfortable listening, like what to expect from a show. Do you feel like that's a mistake to be kind of all over the place? You know, one time I'm gonna talk about this one time, I'm gonna go a lot longer. One time it's gonna be me.

Alex Sanfilippo (11:06): You know, I think that podcast episodes should be as long as they're good for, for lack of better term. Sure. Like as long as it's good, it should be, it, it should continue to be an episode, but it's better to have some sort of rhythm. I imagine if you're watching a TV show, like let's just compare it to that because a lot of people do that. If it's Tuesday, like let's go back when you couldn't watch them in whenever you wanted. Right. But if it was Thursday at five 30, I remember it was like even a kid watching shows at that time. And my mom knew it was over at six. So I was guaranteed to sit down for dinner. I could start at five 30. She was fine with it. If that episode or that show was 40 minutes, sometimes 50, sometimes 10 sometimes.

Alex Sanfilippo (11:40): Yeah. She would say, no, you're not watching that show because I don't know when it's gonna be over. And I think subconsciously many of us are still wired that way. So I think sure you can see the amount of time that it's going to be. But I think that people are used to, okay, my commute, I get to listen to John. It's always up the same amount of time or it's gonna last just as long as my workout. I'm happy with that. But if people start having to feel like, oh, it's over already or, oh man, this episode's really long. I'm have to listen to it over three workouts. I think that's a little bit of a problem. The consistency in the amount of time of a podcast I've seen with my numbers has always helped it. Now, granted, there's always an exception I had in episode one, I think was 50 minutes or like 49 minutes in change. And all the rest are about 30, 35 minutes. That episode did well, but it was really good the entire time people stayed engaged with it. Yeah,

John Jantsch (12:23): Yeah. Yeah. I think to your first point, you know, it's like people would say, how long should a video be? You know? Well, as long as you can be entertained right on a video and not, and most people can't be entertaining very long. So I, you know, that's always been my belief that people have listening behaviors and you know, they walk the dog or they run on the treadmill or something and, and that's when they want to consume. And so you kind of established that habit. So it's a little bit risky to break it up. I think a lot of people, I get a lot of questions for, you know, tech, the tech side of, of podcasting, where do wait, you know, there's great blog posts. There's great. You know, John Lee Dumas, I think you mentioned maybe at the, of the show. I can't remember if we were recording it, but we mentioned John show

Alex Sanfilippo (13:06): We're recording.

John Jantsch (13:06): Okay. And he, he really got his start in that pod, you know, podcast paradise or paradise podcast thing. So he was really heavily into teaching people that he's got some rate info there. Where do you send people to, to kind of figure out the tech they need?

Alex Sanfilippo (13:18): So I use buzz sprout as my hosting provider, which most people that are familiar with podcasting these days, you have to have a hosting provider. Buzz sprout has a really good tutorial on how to start a podcast and they have all these subcategories. They've done a really good job, just building like the ultimate guide to launching a show and then understanding the, my problem, John. And you had an even bigger problem when you got started cuz of how long ago it was, there was no education out there when you started for me, it was figuring out what kind of mic I needed. Like there's so many options out there. And I finally ended with one that, that has, I forget the name. I'm not the technical guy at all, but basically if I step two feet away from this mic, you can't hear it. And when I started my podcast, I was in a condo.

Alex Sanfilippo (13:54): And so you have shared one. And at first I started with like a Yeti mic, which was a great mic. But if my neighbors were walking, you could hear it. If someone flushes the toilet, you can hear it. Right. Like I need, I didn't have a true studio. So I need a mic that if you're two feet away, you can't hear it. Learning those things was a really tough thing for me. But now yeah, I think buzz, Sprout's doing a good job with it. There's a ton of YouTube channels now basically I'd look it up topically, but I do think still the number one piece of advice I give to people is to find somebody who's experienced that you like their style that you've learned from. Yeah. And find a way to connect with that individual. Even if you pay them for a little bit of coaching time, I'm telling you can save thousands of dollars just by meeting with that person, getting their advice.

John Jantsch (14:33): Yeah. It's funny. Um, you mentioned that, you know, back in the day kind of talk, it was actually not only hard to do a show, it was hard to get people to listen to a show. I mean, they, we didn't have, you know, the apps on, you know, you

Alex Sanfilippo (14:45): Couldn't even listen that wasn't an option, right?

John Jantsch (14:48): Yeah. It was, we had pod catchers. You had to subscribe to a specific tool that you would, you know, log into then and you would, it you'd tell it what show you used. RSS feeds. You would tell it what show. And then you could listen to that show. But I mean, teaching people how to actually listen to your show was as much a battle as getting it recorded. So pretty, we, you know, this technology, you and I were recording on Riverside today. You know, we're both using, I don't know, $600 microphones that make us sound good. Uh, we're recording 'em locally. You know, this show gets uploaded. Um, so that even if you and I have a bad connection, it, it still comes up, you know, crystal clear. So I mean the, you know, and, but I do think that I do think the expectations have been raised. Right. You know, when I first started it, people listen to a crappy show because what option did they have? But now, you know, you've got NPR in, in the game and you've got, you know, these professional studios in the game. So I think, uh, the, it is worth spending maybe twice what you thought you were gonna have to spend for some of the equipment. I think because people expect,

Alex Sanfilippo (15:47): Yeah. I, I completely agree with that. Talking about like the change of tools, like back in the day for casting, I mean, back in the day definitely meant 2005, but also meant 2018. When I started like just a few years in the past at this point, like the, the technology and the rate of change in podcasting is huge. And going back to what we were just talking about, I do recommend making a small upfront investment because you might for, this is my forever mic. I'll be real. There's better microphones out there, but I don't, I'm never gonna need another microphone. I'm never gonna need another video camera. Like I've got all the tools that I need and it's streamlined it so much. You kinda have to compare what's it worth my time or my money. I will always rather spend money than give up my time. And thankfully that podcastings hit this point. Now the tools are just getting better and better that you just have to make that consideration for yourself, which would I rather do? And one little hint for somebody who's listening. Like, oh, I don't know if I wanna spend $500 on a mic right now in today's world. You can almost sell a mic with, with, for what you bought it for. So you should be okay. Worst case scenario used something like Facebook marketplace and someone will pick it up tomorrow. So you'll be okay. Yeah.

John Jantsch (16:44): Yeah. Certain mics certainly hold their value. The, the part that probably a not of people don't realize, they think, oh, you and I are talking, we recorded this. We've got a podcast. Right. But a lot depend upon how much editing you wanna do, how much stuff you wanna put into it. There can be a lot of post-production that, that goes into actually getting it to a point where somebody can listen to it on, on iTunes. The good news is we were talking about tools out there. They're now complete services out there that will do that part of it for you. Which, and, and then I know at, uh, podcast pros you have, or podcast pros, I'm sorry. You have a, you actually even have some SOPs or a service where somebody can actually get kind of the here's, you know, here's some tools that streamline that. Talk a little bit about your postproduction

Alex Sanfilippo (17:30): Process. Yeah. So for the longest time, going back to that, that first episode of your show, I heard of about with JD talking about getting your hands dirty and learning it all. I learned it all. It was a mess, but when you do that, and you've said this as well, like you're able to, when you know it, you can, you're able to actually sub it out. Like, you know what you're doing and you can save a lot of money by knowing these things up front. You don't need to become the best in the world, but if you understand them, it's easier to sub out. So I'm thankful to say, just after the second year of my podcast, I don't touch any of that anymore. I don't edit, I don't even have the software on my computer anymore. None of it. And I'm thankful for that, but it all came from starting from a place of building an SOP, which stands for standard operating procedure.

Alex Sanfilippo (18:04): So basically knowing and documenting every step, you make a on the way. I mean, and I'm a little OCD with this stuff. So I even said like set up my mic, like, and after that, make sure that it sounds good, like every single step, but when I started going through and doing that, I went from being really stressed out and feeling like frantically like, oh no, did I forget anything that I missed something? Like, what am I doing here to being very organized of? Okay. Check done with that check done with that, having that available tells you what you can sub out pretty easily. And the way that I always start with that is I, I put how much time things would take me. So I started an Excel spreadsheet is what I did. And I'd organized it by the amount of time it was taking me to do stuff. And obviously the most time consuming part was editing. So my mind, the first thing I needed to sub out was editing. Cuz now I'm saving four hours a week by doing that. I was doing it one episode a week at that point with my show. But yeah, having all that organized and in one place is so helpful cuz it tells you, this is exactly what I need to do to make it to the next level.

John Jantsch (19:01): Yeah. And you, you know, obviously what you just explained is something that is a principle we need to bring to our businesses in general, every aspect of our business. And, and especially, I love the idea of how much time is it taking, cuz basically what you're saying is how much money am I losing or how much money am I investing when I could be out, you know, networking or doing whatever probably makes me a lot more money. So it's a great way to look at it. Let's, let's flip the, to the other side of the mic and that is being a guest on podcast. I'm, you know, I'm a huge fan of being guests on podcasts. I think today it, you know, it, it replaces guest blog posting in my mind because you know, those guest blog posts just get buried somewhere. Whereas, you know, I, I can just tell you, Alex, I'm gonna promote the crap out of this show. Right. Because I want people to listen to it. Right. And I'm gonna link to some, some resources that you tell me. So, you know, I think being a guest on a podcast is today. One of today's best its audience it's exposure, but it's also backlinks too. So tell me how you view, because I know you have a little experience in matching people. So tell me how you view, you know, you know, not everybody needs to start a podcast. I think you can get a lot of benefit outta podcasting, but

Alex Sanfilippo (20:09): You know, I'm glad you brought that up. Cause earlier we talk about starting a podcast being really important. It, it's not for everybody like you may, if someone was thinking about, and they're listening to somebody be like, you know what, I don't wanna do this, but then at least if you have a product service, something you're trying to get out there, you're a speaker, whatever. It might be a marketer of some sort, right. Uh, get on podcast is a guess. I think it's a huge opportunity. The back links alone, as you know, John art. Um, amazing. I mean, when you have a link coming from apple to you or from Spotify or Amazon coming to your website, that looks good and we're not gonna get into SEO obviously. But I think it's a great way to grow your craft. As a matter of fact, I've been telling people recently, John don't start a podcast until you've been on some, make sure you like the medium.

Alex Sanfilippo (20:49): Yeah. Make sure that you think you can actually add value. Make sure people like to listen to you, like make sure that it works out for you. Cause that's a good way to test the water. But I think that being a guest on a podcast is so important, but here's what matters. It's not one size fits all. And I'm not saying that some podcasts are better than others, but I'm saying that some podcast are better for you than for others. Here's the thing if you like golf, but you're trying to, to, to explore like SEO marketing, don't go on golf podcasts, right. Unless it's just a hobby, you wanna do it for fun. Fine. But no, you need to find podcasts that are about marketing, but specifically SEO podcast. And don't look for the biggest one. Like John, it's an honor to be on your show today.

Alex Sanfilippo (21:25): But my target is you usually shows with under a hundred listeners, which maybe sounds crazy. But the way I view a podcast listener is not like social media. I view it as somebody sitting in a seat. And if you told me there's a room right behind you, John, with a hundred people sitting in it or 50 people sitting in it that are interested in my exact expertise and topic, I would skip anything else in my life to make sure that I'm there. So I can speak to those people. That to me is the power of podcast guessing when you have the right niche in mind.

John Jantsch (21:51): Yeah. And, and, and there are so many shows, just like what you described. And in many cases, you know, you're gonna have a better shot at getting on that show as well because they, you know, they obviously they want good quality content, I'm assuming, but you know, they're not necessarily having household names on their show as well. So I think that, that it, it be better time spent for sure. I always like to ask people that are in certain, uh, industries, the future question. So let's end today with kinda where do you see this going other than just continued

Alex Sanfilippo (22:22): Growth? Yeah. So the obvious answer of course is continued growth as you said, but there's a specific reason that I bring that up and it's because right now we are seeing an influx of marketing dollars hitting podcasting at an unprecedented rate. Yes. I mean, it is just flowing into podcasting right now. And along with that, the big players now we've got Amazon, we've got Google, we've got Spotify, YouTube just hired LinkedIn. LinkedIn,

John Jantsch (22:43): LinkedIn is doing a network now

Alex Sanfilippo (22:45): HubSpot as you're very familiar with, but, but YouTube just hired a director of podcast, which is, is interesting for YouTube. And we actually show that Netflix got announced as well, that they hired a director of podcasting. So we don't know what's coming, but here's the thing. All these big networks they're focused on the top 500 shows out of everybody. And most of them are celebrities at this point, right? Like those are the big ones, but all the tools get better for the individual creators because that just drips down into the entire industry. That's why I think that get being part of podcasting is really, it's gonna be the future. And I think we're gonna see more and more great things happen in the industry. So I think it's an exciting time to be on either side of the mic right now.

John Jantsch (23:21): Yeah. So Alex, thanks so much for showing up and uh, at the duct tape marketing podcast and sharing your expertise and hopefully we'll, uh, run a, into each other one of these days soon after

Alex Sanfilippo (23:32): I'm hoping. So John, I really appreciate time. It was absolutely an honor to be here. Thank you.

John Jantsch (23:36): All right. So that wraps up another episode. I wanna thank you so much for tuning in and you know, we love those reviews and comments and just generally tell me what you think also did you know that you could offer the duct tape marketing system, our system to your clients and build a complete marketing consulting coaching business, or maybe level up an agency with some additional services. That's right. Check out the duct tape marketing consultant network. You can find it at ducttapemarketing.com And just scroll down a little and find that offer our system to your client's tab.