John Jantsch (00:00): This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by Nudge, hosted by Phil Agnew, and it's brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. You ever noticed how the smallest changes can make the biggest impact on Nudge you learned simple evidence, back tips to help you kick bat habits, get a raise, and grow your business. In a recent episode, Phil tested a thousand dollars on some marketing principles, some work, some don't. Uh, guest Nancy Har Hut, who's been a guest of the show as well. And Phil put these principles to test in a set of real life experiments. You'll learn what works and what doesn't. Listen to Nudge wherever you get your podcasts.

(00:52): Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch, and my guest today is Diana Kander. She's a keynote speaker on Curiosity and Innovation and a New York Times bestselling author. She's a serial entrepreneur who has entered the United States as a refugee at the age of eight, and she has launched and sold millions of dollars of products and services. Today we're gonna talk about a book she co-authored called Go Big or Go Home: Five Ways to Create a Customer Experience That Will Close the Deal. So, Diana, welcome back to the show. This is at least your second, maybe your third time.

Diana Kander (01:30): John, thank you so much. I hope this isn't two forward, John, but I was so excited to be on this show. I created a jingle for you, . You've been in business for so long and I, I feel like it might be the only thing missing. So let's, can I share it with you? You're,

John Jantsch (01:47): You're gonna way no matter what I say anyway, so , I'm ready.

Diana Kander (01:50): Alright, here we go.

John Jantsch (01:52): Okay.

Diana Kander (01:55): Duct tape.

Diana Kander (01:56): Woo.

Diana Kander (01:58): We'll make your branch shine like new with duct tape. Woo. We'll make your brat stick live glue with duct tape. Woo. Marketing is tried and true with duct tape. Woo.

Diana Kander (02:14): . Did that sound good on your end?

John Jantsch (02:16): That sounded amazing on my end. Yes. There's

Diana Kander (02:18): A little muffled in my headphones,

John Jantsch (02:20): But it's to, I wanna know how, I wanna know how you did it.

Diana Kander (02:22): It's to the theme of Ducktails, of course.

John Jantsch (02:25): . Oh, well, I'm sorry. I'm too old for that. Oh, no, I think my kids are too old for that is what I really mean. So I wasn't familiar with that. Okay. Sorry.

Diana Kander (02:35): Very popular cartoon. Sure. In the nineties when I was growing up, and I just thought, what a perfect match.

John Jantsch (02:42): Well, I certainly appreciate all of the effort that went into that. I bet you didn't even have to use chat g p t to write that. Did you?

Diana Kander (02:51): Uh, chat g p t was kind of helpful, I'll be honest. I'll be honest.

John Jantsch (02:54): , yeah, I believe it. So that was, that was like, you're going big, wasn't it,

Diana Kander (03:01): At the very beginning. John, I wanna show you that this interview is gonna be different. People are gonna get a lot more than they're used to out of it.

John Jantsch (03:09): So as I said, you've been on several times. This is kind of a, this is a, I don't know, is this a different hack? Would you describe this book as being very different from your books on, say, curiosity? I mean, obviously you're talking about pitching things and you know, you have some, I was gonna call 'em crazy ideas. Um, , that's not what, that's not what I really meant, but outrageous in a good way. Ideas. So I, I guess the first logical question is, you know, what kinda led you to this idea? Right now?

Diana Kander (03:40): I didn't want to do this book. Actually, my co-author, Tucker Trotter called me. We had a mutual connection and he was like, Hey, I wanna write a book about my company Dimensional Innovations. They create experiences for like sports stadiums, universities. And I was like, good for you. You know, you enjoy that. I am so not interested. I, I did the call on my treadmill walking my dog, like, just could not have shown less interest, you know? And he said, Hey, will you come take a tour? Like, I get it, you don't wanna do the book? And I said, fine. And so I went and took a tour of their 200,000 square foot facility, which is like, so impressive. And then during the tour, he tells me that they have this move to close big deals, this move where their usual close rates like 45% when they do the move, they close 90% of these huge hard to win deals. Right. And that got me really interested. And

John Jantsch (04:36): So I said, well, at least had to know what the move was. Right. .

Diana Kander (04:38): That's right. . And so I, I talked to a couple more people and then I talked to some of their clients, and then I became obsessed with it. And I was like, well, other people must be doing this, and why does this work? What is the science behind it? So by the end of it, I was begging him to co-author this book. I just had to tell other people about how this works. Yeah. So I, I had to tell this story. It's a slight departure from the innovation work, although I do think it's a way to innovate how you sell your products and services. Yeah, for sure.

John Jantsch (05:05): Completely. And quite frankly, there's a huge element of curiosity, I think, to the framework. So that's how it works for me. Yeah.

Diana Kander (05:11): .

John Jantsch (05:12): So in the subtitle, five Ways to Create a Customer Experience that Will Close More Deals. You want to, you want to kind of dive into a couple of the elements. So people need to buy the book if they want them all, but Sure.

Diana Kander (05:22): Uh, for your TV viewers Yes. The five elements spell out the word magic, and we're basically creating magic inside of our presentations. We don't want them to be instantly forgotten as soon as we walk out the door, which is literally what happens. Right. And so there are five things you can do to help increase how memorable your presentation is and how actionable it is. Do you want me to tell you what they are?

John Jantsch (05:46): Yeah, I mean, let's start with surprise.

Diana Kander (05:49): That's the best one. .

John Jantsch (05:50): ,

Diana Kander (05:52): You gotta do things that they don't expect. John. And did you see my mug?

John Jantsch (06:00): Yeah, of course I did.

Diana Kander (06:02): For the audio listeners, you gotta tell them what's happening.

John Jantsch (06:05): So she just took a drink of, I'm guessing a tequila, but yeah, , who knows? But it was in a mug that had the duct tape marking logo on it that I did not supply to her.

Diana Kander (06:17): A brand new marketing Go Duct Tape Marketing logo. Congratulations on that. Thank you. I love it. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I think you need more schwag with the new stuff on it. We do with the new logo on it.

John Jantsch (06:26): We do. My wife won't let me get anymore though. .

Diana Kander (06:32): So Surprise is all about doing something that is unexpected. Our brains love to be on autopilot, even when we're being pitched and they're basically saying like, do I know what's happening next? And when somebody's presenting, usually it's, it follows a very similar pattern. So when you add an element of surprise, people are like, okay, I have to pay attention because Right, right. What's, maybe there are other fun surprises happening.

John Jantsch (06:55): Yeah. Yeah. And it's a bit of a dis I mean an interruption too, right? I mean, just like you said, a lot of times we lull people to sleep with what they, because they have an expectation. Okay, this comes, now this is gonna come down. And it's like, whoa, I didn't see that coming. And I think as you said, it kind of snaps somebody back into attention, doesn't it?

Diana Kander (07:16): Yeah. I mean, if you think about what your body does in a surprising moment, yeah. You open your hands and open your eyes and open your ears. Like you're just taking in as much information as possible. And when we're pitching our idea, that's what they're taking in all the way as opposed to putting their guard up and Yeah. Kind of taking a, a, you know, step back approach.

John Jantsch (07:38): Do you want to give an example from the book

Diana Kander (07:40): Of

John Jantsch (07:41): Crazy of using Yeah. Of a surprise that worked?

Diana Kander (07:44): No, I wanna keep doing surprises on here. John, I know that you're a woodworker. I, and so I created this Duct Tape Marketing apron that you can use in your shop. Do you love it? ? How great

John Jantsch (07:56): Does this look? I do love it. I do love it. Are

Diana Kander (07:58): You, I'm gonna be sending it to you after. I was gonna

John Jantsch (08:00): Say, you have no use for any of this. So ,

Diana Kander (08:04): I'm gonna load you up on Duct Tape swag. Okay. After this,

John Jantsch (08:07): I do wear an apron when I do my woodworking.

Diana Kander (08:10): Now you have an extra one. .

John Jantsch (08:11): Now I have an extra one. . So that leads me, actually, unless you want to go go more surprise on Surprise. But my you're like,

Diana Kander (08:19): What else do you have back there?

John Jantsch (08:20): Yeah, exactly. Bring it . You gonna have just like one at a time? Let's see the whole show. All right. So, so years ago in Duct Tape Marketing, and I used to do this in my practice, I wrote about something I call Lumpy Mail, where instead of sending somebody a letter, we'd send them a box of Cheerios or something with, you know, a message that was tied to what we were trying to pitch. And you talk a lot in this book about physical objects, and I've seen it work, but tell me about how it goes into your Go big framework.

Diana Kander (08:49): Well, there's just a fascinating science to why physical objects work, but basically they are like a faster pathway to our memory banks. The same things that process visual information are in the same part of our brain that process emotions, which is how we make decisions. And so if we just hear something or read something, it doesn't have as much of a memorable impact as if we see a physical 3D object. And th this has made such an impression on me, John, that I do not enter any meeting without a 3D object of some sort. Even if we're on a Zoom call right now, like having a mug with their logo or something that shows that you have taken this invisible idea, which is a lot of our products and services are invisible ideas, and you've taken it into the tactile world. It just makes such a huge impact.

John Jantsch (09:44): Don't you also find that it, it sends a little message is, Hey, this is an important thing to me. I took some time to actually do something that, you know, not everybody else does. I mean, in the world of just mass LinkedIn connections and mass emails, I mean, just showing that you took actually a little extra time. Doesn't that, you know, doesn't, that actually isn't that part of the power of it?

Diana Kander (10:05): I think that's at the heart of the Go Big or Go Home Method. It's showing your soul to people. It's showing who you are as a person and that you care about them. Can I tell you that for the last two days I've been walking around my house like singing duct tape, woo . Like I've been thinking about this, I've been thinking about you and how excited I am to share this thing with you. And I think it shows you how much I care and how much time I took for this. It's not just another thing for me.

John Jantsch (10:32): That's right. That's right. So can I see your shelf of all the other, uh, mugs that you have?

Diana Kander (10:37): all the other mugs? .

John Jantsch (10:39): I might get jealous then though, huh? Right. .

Diana Kander (10:42): It's in a different room. The theme song is brand new. I've never done that. And I have certainly never created a woodworking apron for anybody

John Jantsch (10:49): Else. . And now let's hear a word from our sponsor. You know, companies are under pressure right now. I mean pressure to get more leads, close deals faster, get better insights to create the best experience for customers. A CRM can help, but not just any crm. One that's easy to set up, intuitive to use and customizable to the way you do business. And that's where HubSpot comes in. HubSpot CRM is easy for everyone to use on day one and it helps teams be more productive. Drag and drop your way to attention grabbing emails and landing pages. Set up marketing automation to give every contact white glove treatment. Plus AI powered tools like Content Assistant mean less time spent on tedious manual task and more time for what matters. Your customers. HubSpot CRM has all the tools you need to wow prospects lock in deals and improve customer service response times. Get started today for free @hubspot.com.

(11:55): Hey, marketing agency owners, you know, I can teach you the keys to doubling your business in just 90 days or your money back. Sound interesting. All you have to do is license our three step process that it's gonna allow you to make your competitors irrelevant, charge a premium for your services and scale perhaps without adding overhead. And here's the best part. You can license this entire system for your agency by simply participating in an upcoming agency certification intensive look, why create the wheel? Use a set of tools that took us over 20 years to create. And you can have 'em today, check it out at dtm.world/certification. That's DTM world slash certification. In some of the materials you sent me about the book, you were very adamant about something that people should stop doing when it comes to pitching. Yes. On trying to know what it is.

Diana Kander (12:51): So one of the five tools is to give the pitch in the right order. Mm-hmm. . And unfortunately the vast majority of us are doing it in in the wrong order. This is how a pitch usually goes. It's like, Hey, let me tell you a little bit about myself. That's number one. Yeah. Number two, let me tell you a little bit about my, about my company. And then number three, I'll tell you why you should buy from us. And that makes sense, right? At a rational level, we want them to understand us so that they understand who they're buying from. But the thing that we learned is that people don't care about you at all until they know that you get them. Right. So that's backwards. We have to start with, Hey, I get you. And then once I establish that foundation, then I'll tell you about myself. Then people wanna know who they're buying from or who they're taking information from. But until I establish that level of I get you and you want to be here, it does, the rest of it doesn't matter.

John Jantsch (13:51): You know, that's really interesting because, uh, so many of these principles really apply to everything we're doing in marketing. I mean, I for years have been talking about websites. You know, you go there and the first thing it says is, here's who's we, here's who we are, here's what we do. And you know, I tell people all the time, nobody wants, you know what we sell, they want the problem solved. So like, promise to solve my biggest problem, which does show that you got me , but it's also gonna get my attention. It's like, because I think a lot of times people don't even know what their problem is. They just know something's wrong. And it's like you've put your finger on it for them and it's like, yeah, now I wanna know the rest. But everybody does do that in reverse. So you're talking about a probably a physical pitch, but I think it's really that that runs true probably for almost every kind of contact or engagement we would have. Isn't it

Diana Kander (14:37): Anything? I mean even these calls, you know, you would usually start with people like saying like, tell me a little bit about yourself. And people are like, well of course I would love to tell you about myself , but I start these interviews by saying, let me tell you something about yourself first. Yeah. And maybe your audience. And then once we establish that foundation, then I'll share a little bit about me.

John Jantsch (14:57): Yeah. Cuz the truth is I really only care about myself. , I'm asking you the question because you know I'm supposed to Right

Diana Kander (15:03): There, there's a science to it. John , our brain actually releases dopamine every time we talk about ourselves in the same way that it does when we have sugar or sex. Like it's a powerful drug. Yeah. And that's why when you start talking about yourself, you can't seem to stop because it just feels so good. So if you do an interview or a pitch and you feel real good afterwards, that's the dopamine high. And that is a false sense of confidence that you have afterwards. You should feel like kind of okay. Because you let the other person do a lot of the talking.

John Jantsch (15:34): Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. And that's such an easy thing, quite frankly. I mean, we're wired as humans to maybe not think that way, but I think if you just like put a big sticky note there and just, you know, really start it that way, I think people would find that, uh, it would change everything about the conversations they're having in general. Wouldn't it? I mean, that could, that would go for, wouldn't that go for networking? I mean frankly,

Diana Kander (15:55): Anything. And I, I'll tell you, we have a tool in the book, which is kind of a map for you to think about your presentation. I do my podcast interviews on it too. And it's basically what am I gonna do at the beginning to Right. Get their attention and make it about them? Then where am I gonna insert points of magic throughout the conversation? And then what is the big finish of how I'm gonna end?

John Jantsch (16:17): Yeah. I think you ought to finish with the Standup Comedy Act that you just did.

Diana Kander (16:22):

John Jantsch (16:23): Speaking of dopamine.

Diana Kander (16:25): Yes. That was, I just did a standup. I've been wanting to do it since I was 17 years old. I am much older than 17 now. I've been waiting 25 years for this. And a friend of mine created a safe space for it. It was a sold out room of 260 women. Yeah. And I finally felt like I could do my six minutes.

John Jantsch (16:45): Yeah. Yeah. Was there wine involved too? I mean, there

Diana Kander (16:48): Was a lot of wine. Yes. for the audience. I think that's very key for the

John Jantsch (16:52): Comments. Yes. Yes. And poor Jason, that's all I'm asking.

Diana Kander (16:55):

John Jantsch (16:56): What a sport. No, that's like the easiest subject in the world for comedian, isn't it?

Diana Kander (16:59): Spouses,

John Jantsch (17:00): Yeah. .

Diana Kander (17:02): I have a lot of spousal content that didn't make that show. So yes, you'll be happy to know there's enough for like a whole second act.

John Jantsch (17:10): All right. So you outlined some memorable pitches as we call them in the book. And do you have a favorite memorable pitch child?

Diana Kander (17:21): It's hard to pick. I'll tell you my co-author's favorite pitch. So in the story, which is Nap Hide, which is the company that makes work trucks. Yep. And they've created, they've turned their sales process into a just magical experience that almost feels like Disney World for people who are buying work trucks. . Yeah. And all throughout, there's these moments where it helps their customers connect with them on a completely different human soul level. That's really where we got that idea. Like it helps these moments, magic moments that we try to help you create, help people connect with you on this much, much deeper level than a typical transaction. And so, you know, they've engineered a process that really works. My favorite pitch in the, in the book is that of Sarah who used it to get a job. So I, we talked about how this works in a lot of different applications, but I do think it can help people get jobs. I've now helped five people. It's like my side Hobby get jobs using the go bigger go home method.

John Jantsch (18:24): You're a job maker. Yes. Like a matchmaker. Right?

Diana Kander (18:27): . But like a lot of people that I've talked to, you know, they'll get to the final three and then they just don't get any further and they don't know why. Right. And unfortunately it's because you didn't create that moment of connection or memorable. And this can help you do it. And so Sarah's story is, she had this job she hated, she was making $50,000 a year, she did a go big or go home pitch. And at the end of it she got an email that said is a hundred thousand enough? Which is like, what a great offer. You know, .

John Jantsch (18:58): That's so funny. So, so is there a risk of going too big? I mean, to where you, I mean you just, people are like, that was weird. I mean there's sort of this like, be memorable and this like be weird Right. Level isn't there? Yes. . Yes.

Diana Kander (19:14): I mean, like if I had a brand new Mercedes pull up in your driveway this morning and I was like, Hey John, really looking forward to the podcast. Like yes, there are of course lines and

John Jantsch (19:26): I don't get it. Where's ? Where's that over the top?

Diana Kander (19:30): And you have to, it has to be reflective of you. Like that's the whole thing. It's you're showing your authentic personality. So if you start creating jingles like I do, it might not work as well because you're not as excited about it as I am. So I, I just think it's about every person finding their heart and being able to display it in a physical way to their audience.

John Jantsch (19:52): Yeah. S so how do you pinpoint, like publishers wanna know who's this book for, right? Like yes. And they want it to be broad, but they also wanted to be obvious . And I think that that this book and as we've talked about it, I mean this is personal brand. I mean all this is down to like, I just wanna have more friends, you know, almost level, right? All the way up to c e o of major companies thinking we have to rethink our entire engagement process. So how do you work with the fact that, I mean, how do you help somebody know this book's for you? That's my real question.

Diana Kander (20:24): So our, our very simple initial premise is this book is for B2B companies that are selling and it can double their close rate. That's what we've seen it do. Because they're turning their sales process into a sales experience. Yeah. And yes, there are other people who can benefit from it. My side hobby of helping people get jobs with it. Yes, of course nonprofits have used it to raise money. Sure. But I think at the core it's helping businesses that are in a market where they have to compete and they don't wanna compete on price. Yeah. This is an exceptional way to compete on soul.

John Jantsch (21:00): And he, here's the good news. You correct me if I'm wrong. Yeah. You, the title of this could go, could be just go a little bigger . I mean, because the bar's pretty low, isn't it? Yeah.

Diana Kander (21:14): Yeah. So it's about thinking about every step of your customer interactions and thinking where can I add a little bit of magic to this? So you can even, the smallest step you could go is your signature line. Like why use a traditional signature line and not one that reflects a movie that you love or something about your personality that just really allows you to shine through. Do you see how silly it is to Yeah,

John Jantsch (21:36): Yeah. Ferris Bueller's Day Off . So many, so many lines in that movie that reflect me. So I'm gonna start doing that now.

Diana Kander (21:44): Whi which of the, each of these moments, John, helps us connect. Sure. That's the whole thing. It's about like when we're trying to pitch a business deal, people are like, you're not human. I don't care about your thing. And then as soon as we can break through and allow them to see us as a human being, then they can't help by connect with us. Yeah. Yeah. And then we got 'em.

John Jantsch (22:03): So, so I have, I've, you know, spoken in events where the, you know, they wanna do a goofy thing like tell us your favorite movie. So we'll announce that when we're introducing you. And it is funny how people will come up afterwards and it's like, I just stalked for 45 minutes. I told you some brilliant things. The only thing they remember is that I like Ferris Bueller's Day off because I do think you're right, we're looking for our tribe and it's like, oh, if you like that movie that says everything I need to know about you. That's right. Thing. So that connection, you know, part is so big and it is, you know, you talk about memorable, being memorable and I think have most of the game is cutting through. You know, you talk about those people that maybe a thousand people do, you know, send in resumes for a job. Like how do you cut through that ? That's right. You know, so. Absolutely. So Diana, it was as always, I got more than I expected in having you on the show. Tell people or invite people where you'd like 'em to connect with you. I know the book's available, you know anywhere,

Diana Kander (22:54): John, I didn't just bring presents for you, I brought presents for your listeners. They would be not fair for me to do that. So the book is available on Amazon, you can find it there, but if you want to get a digital copy, I'm happy to just send you one for free. All you have to do is send me an email, tell me why you want one. My email address is [email protected] and I wanna share this idea with the world. So if you don't wanna buy it, I'm happy to send it to you.

John Jantsch (23:18): Okay. And we will also put that generous offer and link in the show notes. So go out and get it and be more memorable. How's that Go big Go

Diana Kander (23:27): Home. Do you want me to send us off, John?

John Jantsch (23:29): Yeah, go . I dunno if I, I don't know if I should stop the recording now or ,

Diana Kander (23:36): Just one last one.

(23:41): Duct tape. Ooh,

(23:43): It's catchy.

John Jantsch (23:45): Get up and dance. Come on.

Diana Kander (23:47): Woo. Make your Brass stick Live glue with duct tape. Marketing is tried and true with duct tape. Woo.

John Jantsch (23:58): I'm gonna lose so many sponsors over this

Diana Kander (24:01): .

John Jantsch (24:04): Why? No, I'm, because I've given you trouble. It's amazing. This is probably the best show I've ever done and you know, people are gonna enjoy the heck out of it and it's always great to catch up with you and, uh, hopefully we'll run into you again, one of these days in person out there on the road or in Kansas City or wherever we bump into each other.

Diana Kander (24:23): Thank you so much, John.

John Jantsch (24:26): Hey, and one final thing before you go. You know how I talk about marketing strategy, strategy before tactics? Well, sometimes it can be hard to understand where you stand in that, what needs to be done with regard to creating a marketing strategy. So we created a free tool for you. It's called the Marketing Strategy Assessment. You can find it @marketingassessment.co, not.com, dot co. Check out our free marketing assessment and learn where you are with your strategy today. That's just marketing assessment.co. I'd love to chat with you about the results that you get.