John Jantsch (00:12): This episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast is brought to you by Klaviyo. Klaviyo is a platform that helps growth focused e-commerce brands drive more sales with super targeted, highly relevant email, Facebook and Instagram

John Jantsch (00:26): Marketing. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch, my guest today, that's plural, Mark Graham and Bobby Lihue. They are the president and chief brand officer and chief content officer of a company called CommonSku, a company that creates software for the promotional products industry. They also have a podcast and some great resources for the industry. I was actually on their show a few weeks ago, so you might Google that and see if you can find that. Obviously we'll have it in the show notes as well. So Mark and Bobby, welcome to the show. Thanks, John. Glad to be here.

Mark Graham (01:04): Thanks, John. Great pleasure to be here.

John Jantsch (01:07): I'm just going to tell the world if they sense a bit of frustration in my voice today. It's because this is take three on this show with some technical difficulties we've had. And it's funny, obviously a lot of folks out there are working from home for the first time and using these virtual tools, and I've been using it for 20 years back when we used to call 'em home-based businesses. Remember that? I do remember that. Yeah. Instead of working from home, now everybody's working from home, including as many small businesses that choose to work and can work virtually. So that's my rant. Sorry. Thanks for letting me share that people. Alright, so Bobby, mark, I, as you know, because we talked about it before, actually early on in my career, did a lot with promotional products. I was a promotional products distributor. I think one of the first things I bought for my company was a T-shirt that had an Emerson quote on the back.

(02:05): There is no object so foul that intense light cannot make beautiful, and people love that shirt. I should go back and find some of those, but I need that shirt. Yeah, I mean, it's so relevant today, but in a world of various marketing channels, promotional products sometimes gets kind of kicked to the, oh yeah, let's fill up the closet with some stuff so we can give it out when somebody drops by the office or something. But obviously you see it as much more than a frivolous, and you've certainly probably seen the industry as a whole turn that idea around. So I wonder if you could give me your take on what you have seen and how you've seen promotional products become a substantial and important marketing channel.

Mark Graham (02:49): I think, John, we come at this from two different angles. One angle is that our customer base are promotional products, suppliers, and distributors. We see that world day in and day out. The other angle is that we as a technology company are a marketing forward organization. So we think really seriously about the different channels that we invest in, whether it's promotional products or Google AdWords or social media ads or all the range of different media that's out there. And I think when you look specifically at the promotional products industry, and to address your specific point, really any advertising media you have, the good, the bad, and the ugly, the bad and the ugly is the comment you made before. Let's produce some stuff. We'll have it in the closet just in case someone shows up. And when I hear that, I hear lack of intent, lack of creative focus, and really lack of focusing on solving a marketing objective.

(03:51): The good and the great of this industry really like any advertising media, is when there is intent, when there is a creative purpose, and most importantly, when you as the marketer have an objective in mind that this particular promotional product is solving. And that objective could be all sorts of different things, but when that's front and center and then the promotional product is designed to accomplish that objective and address it, then that's when you've got magic. And we've seen it time and time again at our company in the tech world that when we use promotional products with intent, we end up getting tremendous ROIs. So it's very exciting to see. And

Bobby Lehew (04:29): John, we've also seen the market driving this. I mentioned that after the 2000 8, 9, 10 recession, you saw changes in the marketplace. People were buying with more intent. Gen Z and millennial buyers that were coming in, millennial buyers at that time, gen Z. Since then, they've come in with not only buying with intent, but buying with purpose. And so as they came to the market with these kinds of demands, there was a ready, ready and willing market waiting for them. And not only doing that kind of work already, but ready for this challenge. And so you saw the entire market, the use of the medium grew in respectability because people were starting to use it more purposefully. They were using it intentionally. And you saw some really cool things. Mark and I spent, not only are we in this business where we work with the manufacturers and the distributors in the multi-billion dollar industry, but we were in this business for 20 years, each of us plus.

(05:22): So we saw and built some of the coolest campaigns for some of the largest companies. So we saw it work, we really saw it work when it was effective. But overall, I think most of your audience being marketers and business owners know this, but you don't want to cast gate an entire medium when you know there's some value. Direct mail's a great example. We all sort of can cast castigate direct mail as being ineffective. Well, now direct mail is having its day. And we all know that direct mail can be an incredible, incredible tool as you have taught very well, John. Well,

John Jantsch (05:54): And it's funny you talk about the intention and the buyers changing. I think that's true across all marketing. I mean, your messaging, your website, everything you're doing, millennials, gen Z have a tendency, I have kids that are all in millennial age group. And I mean, if a website doesn't work a certain way, if the message is wrong, if it's not utility, even in their marketing to you, they're out of here. And I think that that's driving a lot of what I think you're seeing and saying. Yeah. So we're recording this in March of 2020, and obviously a lot of people, depending upon when you're listening to this, hopefully it's in the distant memory that this health challenge, global health challenge, that's really rocked a lot of businesses right now. I'm actually talking to business owners that are almost fearful to promote it all, to almost see self-promotion or even if they have something of value that people actually do need right now, maybe need more right now, there's almost a sense that, gosh, marketing in that traditional way is sort of tone deaf. What's a marketer to do? I'll pose that to you all right now.

Mark Graham (07:03): So as you say, John, we are about 15 days into this crisis, and hopefully we'll see a quick end to it, but we are definitely in the thick of it right now. And these questions are being raised by many people in our industry. And I think I could probably speak from our experience as a marketer and what we're doing and what we feel is that right now is the time not to give up on this particular channel. And not that this is necessarily just promotion products, but really any advertising channel, because this is when customers and prospects need to be hearing these messages of comfort. I'll give you one example of a campaign that we're working on right now that we're actually putting together a custom, one of a kind tote bag campaign that we're building that has been made out of recycled banners from a past event.

(07:59): And we're launching a campaign where people can get this particular limited edition, one of a kind tote bag sent to their homes. And we're in the process of doing this as an engagement strategy at a time when a lot of people would say, I don't have money for marketing. In our case, it's not like we're made of money, but we're putting together this investment so we can touch and connect with our customers at a time when they're stressed out. They need to feel a sense of belonging and sense of happiness. And our whole view is that as marketers and as a customer service oriented organization, if we can be touching our customers regularly and sending the messages of hope and comfort, then we're going to come out of this crisis even stronger. So I don't think this is the time to turn your back on marketing at all. Now, is it time to triple your marketing budget? Absolutely not. I think we could do more with less, but to abandon it entirely, I think is foolhardy.

John Jantsch (08:58): Yeah. And you mentioned actually events obviously for probably the better part of 2020 events have been shut down and that's obviously a huge channel for promotional products folks. What are you seeing? How are people responding or maybe in some ways replacing that chunk of business?

Bobby Lehew (09:20): Well, one thing that I'd like to encourage our community with is that the purpose for the event didn't go away. So let's say it was a corporations event where they recognize what's going on in the company is important advancements in what they're releasing in new releases, but maybe they also recognize their top salespeople are their top things. Some of the need there and what the promotional product specifically were used for. The demand didn't go away for that. The delivery point just changed. So the company still needs that inspiration, that motivation, all of those things. Now we just have to get really creative on the distribution side. One of the things that I would often tell clients that were developing campaigns, we had this, for example, we built this really gorgeous six figure crystal awards campaign for a billion dollar company that recognized these top performers in their field.

(10:14): And when these folks received these awards on stage, they were in tears and they poured their life into this. They're still pouring their lives into this, and they still need to receive that recognition. So we would be shipping those awards to them. There would be virtual parties going on. So one of the things is just not to throw out everything and realize and remember that the need for the events still exist in some way. We just need to sort of pivot and figure out exactly how that distribution will be, get the message, get the method, and then we can figure out the delivery.

John Jantsch (10:46): And I think that we're probably going to see more and more of these events happening, or more and more of these events being kind of the normal, because I think, I mean, let's face it, millions and millions of people now are working from home that never did before, are attending events that never did this before, or having meetings with clients that are no longer even in, don't get in my car and drive across town even now. So I think that marketers not only need to help people pivot to that, but then also as you said, okay, if that's the new normal, how do we make that special?

Bobby Lehew (11:20): Yeah. And speaking of this time too, two, we also need to remember that these products are iconography for important events. So I'd mentioned that back during the Vietnam War, there were a thousand celluloid buttons that were produced at a small Chicago bookstore with the small lettering that said, make love not war. After the Paris attacks, French designer Jean Juliane created a symbol that suddenly went on T-shirts and they became a rallying point. So in many ways, a tangible tactile product can a symbol that brings incredible unity. We know this from a lot of the cancer awareness products like the bracelets and things like that. So as we're talking about this event, I'm curious right now because it's happened so fast to all of us, what's emerging in the market as a tactile emotional experience that is assembled, that's going to capture what we're all going through and connect us in one as a unified people?

John Jantsch (12:17): Yeah, that's a really interesting point. I mean, I think there's an opportunity there for somebody or something that's going to come out and sort of be the symbol of this because this is, a lot of people were impacted, say by nine 11. A lot of people were impacted by the recession of 2008, but I don't know that there's ever been, you go back to World War II where you had such a shared experience, collective experience going on. So I definitely think that I, we'll see, obviously what comes of that.

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John Jantsch (13:29): So let's talk about some of the great examples. I know you've worked with a lot of companies, you've done some of on your own as well. What are some examples where people have really nailed this intent, where they did something that not only moved people to do what they were wanting them to do, but maybe even moved them to talk about the experience? I'd love to hear some examples that maybe you could kind of queue up for us.

Mark Graham (13:55): I think I can share one example, John, that we've employed at our company with a lot of the in-person events that we've done that may shift to a virtual environment, but as I say, that's fairly new. So one of the things that we've made very, very important in the events that we do, we have an event called SKU Camp, an event that's called SKU Con that brings our entire community of customers together. And we set about creating a full on merchandise collection that is prepared in conjunction with the sponsors in the lead up to the event. So it could be everything from a T-shirt to a hoodie to a custom baseball cap to a water bottle that I see you're drinking right now with your logo on it, by the way. So there you go. I know this is a podcast, it's audio only, but if people could only imagine, anyway, so the point is that we'll very intentionally build and merchandise this collection, and then once we design it, we then leak the campaign about three, four weeks in advance where we will professionally photograph each of the individual products and put it out on Instagram and on Facebook to generate excitement amongst the attendees.

(15:13): You'll be receiving this and then the next day they'll be receiving this and such and such. What we're doing in that case is we are A, trying to get people excited about the event. B, trying to get excited about people seeing one another, but C and lastly, to get them excited about the experience that they will have there. Not only the experience of connecting with each other, the experience of learning from the speakers, but the experience of what they're going to get. I know when I attend rock concerts, I just love the merchandise. I love the band I'm seeing, I'll go and spend a ridiculous amount of money on whatever the merchandise is selling for. And I think I was always inspired by that experience and wanted to recreate that at our events, but instead of charging people they've already paid, then they get all this product for free, but they feel as though they've won the lottery. And so it's all about how we can use these products to create this emotional connection and sense of excitement. And the impact on our brand has been phenomenal because people get the product, they feel emotionally connected to the organization, and then they tell everyone through their social media feeds about all this great product they received at our events. So it's a wonderful source of free advertising and a great way to connect the sponsors with the attendees at the event in the lead up as well as during the event.

John Jantsch (16:36): And I think that's great too, because a lot of people spend a lot of money on these things and they don't optimize their spend. And that's kind of what you're saying is take the time to do the buildup, make it a collectible, get people excited. I mean, that's all part of what actually makes the money you've spent go a heck of a lot farther. I had a gentleman named Sue Heineke on the show, gosh, probably a couple months ago. He's written a book called How to Get a Meeting with Anyone. And his whole take in that is if you've got somebody that's potentially worth 50, a hundred thousand dollars and all you're doing is sending a letter or whatever, take some time to create something that just wows. I mean, he happens to be a Wall Street Journal, new Yorker cartoonist, business cartoonist. And so he does a custom cartoon, or I think he might even take one of his cartoons that's been published and personalize it to that person. And he gets a meeting every time. I mean, he frames it, it's beautiful, it costs him a couple hundred bucks, but he just needs one, two, or three of those people to become clients. And so the spend is very appropriate with what he's trying to get accomplished. John, one of my

Bobby Lehew (17:48): Favorite stories is a story that we're probably all familiar with, and we may even have this, but it's the New Yorker tote bag story. And in an article in Digiday, they said that the must have signifier of urban sophistication in 2017 wasn't easy or torn jeans. It was a tote bag that the New Yorker gave to its subscribers. And in that, the VP of Consumer Marketing, Conde Nast, Dwayne Shepherd, talked about this project. He said they were going to launch a paywall. They knew they wanted to have something special. They told their designer wanted a special tote bag that was really the only direction they gave, but they knew their audience. They knew it had to be a tote bag. They knew had to be high quality, and they knew the art and design had to be iconic. They loved it from the start, they had some debate and he said this, and I quote, I've been at Conde Nast for almost 20 years and I've never seen anything like this.

(18:37): I've been traveling a lot personally. My new game is how long will it be before I see a New Yorker tote back? And Berlin, it was day three in Dublin. It was 24 hours. No matter where I go, I tend to see one. The New Yorkers total paid circulation Rose, 12.3% that year to 1.2 million and over half a million people received that back. And so when we think in terms of just the medium, like I said, castigating an entire medium. We have to remember there are some incredible stories out people out there where folks get the message, they get the method of delivery, and then they create this experience around it. Where in this case, and I'm going back to my earlier story, they actually created a symbol. It became a status symbol of some point too. It reflected a part of someone's identity. So the part that I, in my career have loved to watch, see and Blossom, is that swag became, it used to be this cheap plastic stuff that has now become swag is something that can actually become a form of identity that can unify us all. And many of us that are in the business are experiencing these stories all the time.

John Jantsch (19:40): Well, I was just going to say, and that goes straight to the point of a lot of people's objection is, oh, this stuff doesn't have any ROI. And it's because they don't tie it back to any kind of, I mean, as you talked about, there's no original intent. It's just like, oh, we need some stuff because everybody at the trade show has stuff.

Bobby Lehew (19:58): Yeah. One of my favorite parts of this story is that Elizabeth Seran, whom we love and actually have developed a relationship, was an author, a writer for Fast Company Magazine. She wrote an article, said, it's time to stop spending billions on Cheap Conference swag. This was a couple of years ago, mark and I heard her read the article, it sort of flamed the industry. We invited Elizabeth to come on to our podcast to talk about it. It was an interesting article. And then what happened was I wrote a rebuttal to it, which on Twitter, she actually said was a very thoughtful response to it. But one of the interesting things in her story was she said that she confessed that she canceled and resubscribed to the New Yorker just so that she could get a new version of the tote that comes with, so here on one hand, you have someone who is sort of sturgeon's principle, where 95% or whatever it's of everything is crap that you can write a headline that like that you can write a story and it can be somewhat true. But then also when you look at your own experience, you can find what also is true. It can be incredibly powerful, impactful. So that's one of my favorite. Elizabeth actually came onto the podcast, we had a great time and made a friend out of it. But anyways, that's one of my favorite stories in terms of someone who said, this stuff sucks. Oh, but I want that tote back.

John Jantsch (21:16): Well, I think what a lot of people are saying, they say this about marketing, marketing sucks. No, it's bad marketing. That sucks. Right,

Bobby Lehew (21:22): Exactly. Bad promo. And John, you'll find this passion in the industry. This is a huge business. You'll find a lot, as you know, you'll find a lot of folks, the practitioners who do it well for clients, they're very passionate and they won't let clients buy crap. They will say, I won't sell you that. You'd be shocked at how many in the business do that.

Mark Graham (21:40): And we mentioned just a few moments ago that we're in the midst of this challenging environment right now for marketers. And I think that the piece that we're seeing that remains stable is the promotional products, sorry, the side of the promotional products industry that's more focused on creative marketing campaigns. That's the most stable side of the industry. It's the tchotchke, spammy to the garbage can kind of stuff that maybe marketers who were more flushed with cash beforehand. That's the stuff that's first to get cut. And I think that's what you see in the headlines. But what you don't see in the headlines is all the stuff that we've been talking about right here based on our experience as people who have invested our own money in the promotional products channel. And I think that's really exciting in terms of what'll get us out of this mess?

John Jantsch (22:30): Well, I'll give you an example of some pretty quick innovative thinking. We had a client that they're in the basement waterproofing business, and so they had a bunch of tape measures, a good tchotchke, right? Well, all of a sudden they are doing virtual

(22:49): Quotes. I mean, it's like somebody takes their phone down the basement and so all of a sudden now they're sending out a virtual meeting kit, and lo and behold that tape measures become really important because they tell people, go over there and measure that wall and tell me how long it is. Okay, go over there and use your phone and show me this. All of a sudden it's like, it's a virtual estimate kit that they're sending out. It's a great example where there probably wasn't that much intention, necessity created an amazing intention and invention, and so they're now getting some real mileage out of those things that probably sat around in a closet for years.

Bobby Lehew (23:29): That's perfect. Love

John Jantsch (23:30): That. Alright, mark Robbie, where can people find out more about common skew? Obviously if you're a manufacturer or a promotional products distributor, you really need to know about these guys. But just as we've talked about today, there's some great resources on their website for marketers in general. So tell us where people can find you.

Mark Graham (23:47): We're very easy to find online. It's common skew.com. Not only will you be able to see more about what our software does, but we also have a huge library of content that spans video spans, written blog posts, as well as a podcast that we call Skucast. And of course we were honored to have you on that, John, a few weeks ago. And for us, the educational side of this industry is just as important as the software that we provide to people in the industry because we feel very passionate about educating and inspiring the people who use our platform because if they're successful, then we're successful.

John Jantsch (24:28): Yeah. So CommonSku C Omm, C-O-M-M-O-N-S-K u.com, right?

Mark Graham (24:35): Correct.

John Jantsch (24:36): That's right. And so for people that may not know, what the heck is a SKU U, it's like a shopkeeping unit or something like that. Is that what that stands for?

Mark Graham (24:43): That's exactly what it is. Some people will ask where it came from, and the name is really the combination of community and sku. So if you think about the promotional products industry, it's filled with almost infinite number of product SKUs in terms of promotional products. But our software also has a strong community element where we bring all of our customers together for best practices sharing as they run their businesses each individually. So you bring those two things together and we make sense of all the different products as well as all the different people that are on the platform. So bringing the two together is essential.

John Jantsch (25:19): I know I want get, now that you've built up all this stuff for SKU Con, I want to make sure I get invited. I'll speak or something. If it's going to get me, there's going

Mark Graham (25:29): To get so there you go. We'd be honored, John. We'd be honored. Thank you.

John Jantsch (25:35): Alright, mark. Robbie, thanks so much and hopefully we will run into you out there on the road. Be well. Awesome, John, thank you so

Mark Graham (25:42): Much. Thank you, John.