Jeff Walker (00:00): The reason it's lasted so long is because it's based on strategies as opposed to one hit wonders as opposed to short-term tactics. It's rooted in psychology and the way our brains work. And so the formula has been working for coming up on 30 years now, and it's going to keep on working for another 30, I think for 300.

John Jantsch (00:23): Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Jeff Walker. He's the creator of the Product Launch Formula, revolutionized online marketing with a step-by-step process that generated over a billion dollars in launches since pioneering the concept in 1996. His formula has become the gold standard for online entrepreneurial training. He lives in my favorite state of Colorado, way down in the corner of Durango, enjoys Outdoor Adventures and Family. We're going to talk a little bit about his updated and revised version of his bestselling book Launch, how to Sell Almost Anything Online, build a Business You Love and Live the Life of You. So Jeff, the show.

Jeff Walker (01:07): Thanks, Jen. I'm really happy to be here.

John Jantsch (01:09): Been a long time since you've been on the show, but fortunately you and I got to bump into each other recently in Nashville, which is greatly connecting. So for the two people that don't know, what is PLF?

Jeff Walker (01:21): PLF stands for Product Launch Formula and basically is a process and a system to launch your products online, whether you have an online course, a membership site, coaching program, any type of training like that, it's also used for art and for books and even for widgets.

John Jantsch (01:43): Awesome. So I always like to ask in a revised book, updated book, you're in the online space, a lot of stuff changes every day in there. What would you say to somebody who bought the original version? Like what's new?

Jeff Walker (01:57): Yeah, what really changed? So Product Launch Formula is the reason it's lasted so long. So as you mentioned earlier, I started developing it in the mid nineties. That was when I did my first launch, was 1997 and developed it, started publishing this as a course in 2005, came out with the first edition of the book in 2014. The reason it's lasted so long is because it's based on strategies as opposed to one hit wonders as opposed to short-term tactics. It's rooted in psychology and the way our brains work. And so the formula has been working for coming up on 30 years now, and it's going to keep on working for another 30, I think for 300 years. But the online world does change quite a bit. So with that in mind, I revised it and really what I went into deep in the book is social media, which really wasn't, there was no social media when I started out, and even in 2014, it was definitely a thing, but it wasn't a thing at the level it is now.

(03:04): And also paid traffic, the ability to, there's just great ad platforms that there weren't back in the day. So those are a couple of the really big things. And then one thing that's really changed is the timing of the sequences. So Product Line Formula is built on sequences, well, it's built on stories, sequences and mental triggers and the sequences. It used to be there was this pre-launch sequence and that was the star of the show. And then you would actually open up and start taking orders, and that was almost an afterthought, that portion what we call the open cart or the open cart sequence. And that has become the star of the show now. So a lot of the emphasis has shifted from, yes, I'd say it used to be the pre-launch with the open cart being an afterthought, and now the open cart is a full on major sequence.

John Jantsch (03:56): You mentioned when you were describing what it was that you have a lot of pretty big variety of use cases, right? Oh yeah. But somebody might read the word formula and think, oh, there's one way to do it mean, how do you address that idea?

Jeff Walker (04:12): Yeah, I mean, it's more, I think that marketing is often, there's a science and then there's the art. And within product launch formula, there's certainly room for the art. And as formulaic as I try to make it because I'm teaching people to do it and the people I'm teaching, some of them are starting from absolute ground zero, have never sold anyone anything, have never done any marketing whatsoever. So I have to assume that's where we're starting from. But as you get more experience, there's all kinds of room for creativity within the formula, the whole idea, it's about delivering value before the sale. It's about delivering. One of the ways I like to think about is the value. It's value before reveal and before you reveal the full extent of what your offer is, you've already built great value for people. And then there's this idea of desire before availability where you're building up this desire before someone can get it. And if you look at the way, I mean, this is used by big companies, like Apple does this so well, yeah, I mean Hollywood does it. People

John Jantsch (05:24): Waiting around the block for the new thing, right?

Jeff Walker (05:27): Exactly. And that is possible, even if you don't have a budget like Apple has or the Hollywood studios have or the big gaming companies have, we can absolutely do that by putting together a pre-launch where you walk people through a series of you define a problem that they have, whatever market or niche you're in, whether it's quitting smoking or learning meditation or having a better love relationship or building your business or hitting a better tennis serve. It doesn't matter the people they're there, they're in your world because they want something different in their life. And our job is to either still deliver it, is basically to take away pain or deliver pleasure to people, give them more pleasure, take away pain from them. And so they have a series of problems. And if you can solve those problems through your pre-launch and not like the big overarching problem, but if you can start to thin slice some of the things that are keeping them up at night, and you can define those problems really well and then start to solve some of them in the pre-launch, then that just, it builds trust. It builds relationship, but it also builds anticipation that they're going to want to get whatever the thing is.

John Jantsch (06:52): Would you say that this sort of came about organically, like 1995, I was on 9, 9 2. We were all trying to figure out, Hey, how can I make money on this thing? So you created something and worked. People started asking you, Hey, Jeff, how'd you do that? Would just kind it. Yeah,

Jeff Walker (07:10): That's exactly it mean. So when I started, I started publishing a newsletter in 1996, and it was about the stock market. And that's something I had some knowledge on, and I don't even think I ever told you this, but I started that newsletter, a free newsletter back when there very many free newsletters there. No,

John Jantsch (07:27): We called 'em Easy or something like that, right?

Jeff Walker (07:30): And there weren't very many, and I think there was probably about zero free ones about the stock market back then. There might've been couple. And I actually started publishing that because I needed some to put something on my resume to help me get into grad school. So it's just by these ridiculous, ridiculous path people started subscribing to that newsletter. And then after I had about six or eight or 900 people, and I'm like, oh, maybe they'll buy something from me. But at that point, there was no teaching or training about marketing online in 1996. It just didn't exist. And I had no sales or marketing experience. And furthermore, I thought I had this feeling messed up feeling about marketing and messed up feeling about sales that if I asked them for money for something that they would hate me. And so I decided to romance them, and I gave them a whole bunch of really high quality content, and that gradually led it to the sale. And that one seed of an idea has led all these years later, my students have done a billion dollars in sales. It's just ridiculous.

John Jantsch (08:38): You mentioned the idea that there is a psychological strategy or psychological component, a lot of this, so you talk a lot about authority and scarcity. Reciprocity. So how do you bake that in a way that doesn't seem manipulative, but also certainly does the job?

Jeff Walker (08:58): So there's all these mental triggers, and the pre-launch gives you this amazing time to use those triggers and one of them authority you mentioned, and you absolutely have to lead with authority anytime you're doing any type of marketing, even if you're just doing content marketing, if you're just getting people to try to pay attention to your message out in social, you have to establish some authority or else there's just no reason for them to pay attention to you. So anytime, any presentation you give of any sort, anywhere, you have to tell people why they should pay attention to you. Now, there's elegant ways to do this, and there's clumsy ways to do it, like

John Jantsch (09:41): The picture in front of your jet.

Jeff Walker (09:43): Yeah, right, exactly. I think one of the best ways to do it is to deliver real value and to show up and know what you're talking about, not have the intro that I just had on this podcast where I was stumbling over myself trying to describe what PLF was. But yeah, so I think authority is a big one you want to lead with, and reciprocity is a mental trigger where if you give something to someone, they want to give something back to you. And when you are giving true value in your pre-launch and it doesn't cost anything, that's not manipulative, you're just giving value. But it does develop reciprocity. So yeah, I mean, I think with a lot, any type of marketing, there's ways to go to the dark side, and I hope my clients aren't doing that because I think the reality is if you just show up and you deliver real value, you've automatically built up authority and you've built up reciprocity and you've built up likability. And so yeah, those triggers are built right in all the way through the process.

John Jantsch (10:46): Where I see people, what I was talking about, I'm sure none of your students do this, but we've all seen the oh sale ends at midnight every day for the next six months. The sale ends at midnight. And so it's just manipulative, it's, it's not honest and authenticated. It's my pleasure to welcome a new sponsor to the podcast. Our friends at ActiveCampaign, ActiveCampaign helps small teams power big businesses with the must have platform for intelligent marketing automation. We've been using ActiveCampaign for years here at Duct Tape Marketing to power our subscription forms, email newsletters, and sales funnel drip campaigns. ActiveCampaign is that rare platform that's affordable, easy to use, and capable of handling even the most complex marketing automation needs. And they make it easy to switch. They provide every new customer with one-on-one personal training and free migrations from your current marketing automation or email marketing provider.

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Jeff Walker (12:36): I think there's a couple ways, and one of 'em is the people that are just amazing salespeople. And the incredible salespeople, often they have a sales message or a pitch that they're used to giving. And as an aside, I don't like the word pitch. I always use the word offer. So I'm using that intentionally here where these folks have a pitch and what they do is they're like, oh, pitch. And I'd see it in your formula. You usually put out three pieces of pre-launch content. Well, I'll take my pitch and I'll just cut it into three pieces. I'll take my webinar and I'll make it three 20 minute segments instead of a 60 minute segment that's not following the formula, that's not delivering value. So I think the people that are just really good at selling, and I don't consider myself one, I've gotten, I'm really good at marketing. I've gotten pretty darn good at selling, but it's been a long journey for me to get there. But the people that are just natural salespeople, the one that can sell sand in a desert, they get into trouble because

John Jantsch (13:39): They don't want to waste the time on all that other shelf. Right,

Jeff Walker (13:41): Exactly. Maybe they don't need to. I don't know. Maybe they don't. So that's one. And the other one is where people, they just get enamored with is, oh, deliver value before the sale. I love that. And then they just teach and teach and teach. And they're like, if I teach, you say, I'll put out three pieces of pre-launch content. I know I'll do three hour trainings. And so they don't actually follow the formula because the reality is you can easily over teach. And when you over teach what you're asking people to invest a lot of time with you before they've really truly chosen to invest with you monetarily, but also emotionally and intellectually, intellectually. So if you're just like, I'll tell you what, for free, just give me your email and I'm going to give you a Harvard MBA. It's going to take you about three years to get through it, but that's okay because it's going to be great. And even if you delivered that, no one when they give you an email is prepared to spend three years getting an MBA and the same. They're not going to go through three or four hours of training with you until you've moved them

John Jantsch (14:51): Or establish some value of that. It's like, I'm not going to invest the time because I don't know if it's any good. Right.

Jeff Walker (14:57): Exactly.

John Jantsch (14:58): Exactly. So alright. What do you tell the person that says, well, okay, I don't any, I don't even have a course. Can I make this work or do I need to go to work on sort of the preprint stuff?

Jeff Walker (15:10): Yeah, I, so I think first of all, you need to start anyone who's building an online business, anyone who's building any business, you need to start to build an audience. I would start that immediately. And the great thing is you can start that on social these days, but then you want to move people off of social onto an email list. So you want to start to build that audience. And as you build that audience, I consider myself a publisher. It's like when I'm on the ski lift and someone asks me what, I'm a publisher, that's what I do. I put out, well, these days often it's video, but I put words and thoughts and video out into the world, and I think we all need to do that. And the great thing is when you're just starting out and you don't have an audience yet, you don't have to be amazing.

(15:59): Like John, you and I, were at this point now where if we're going to publish something, there's an expectation that we're going to be pretty good because we're experts in our field. We're perceived as experts in our field. But when you're first starting out, no one's paying attention. You have time to practice and get your chops down and find your voice and find the hooks in your message and find what it is you're going to bring to the world. I think that almost every one of us, I think probably every one of us has something we can bring to the world that we can teach something that people, what do people come to you to ask you about? What seems like incredibly easy to you but seems hard to other people and some of the niches that people have had success in? John, there was two guys. They had a six figure launch, so a hundred thousand dollars launch teaching people how to scream. And I was like, they wrote in, after they went to the court, they did this launch, they wrote in, they said, yeah, we thought screaming. And I'm like, okay, we got to get these guys on a call and find out what this is. And it turns out that it's for, I'm like, it's for screaming for heavy metal, for heavy metal, vocal, how

John Jantsch (17:12): To scream. I was going some sort of mental health release or something, but

Jeff Walker (17:16): Turns out there's a technique for it, and they knew how to do it, so they taught it. You only had someone teaching sword fighting. It goes on and on, the different types of things. So I think pretty much all of us have something we can bring to the world. I am a big fan of this, what I call a wisdom business, where you're, whatever you spent time learning how to do, you could show other people how to do it.

John Jantsch (17:41): And what's interesting too, I think a lot of people underestimate this idea that everybody's on the continuum of their journey somewhat. So people that have read all the books and gone to all the courses, maybe they're farther along in their journey, but there's definitely people back here starting their journey that you can teach something to. I think that's a lot of times when people, they read your book and they think, I got to be like Jeff, but Jeff serves a certain audience. There's a whole lot of people out there that your stuff, they're not ready for your stuff.

Jeff Walker (18:10): And the reality is there's more people at the beginning. There's more beginners in any market because everyone starts as a beginner. If you're teaching guitar, there's some people that are masters, Eric Clapton, the masters, but there's a lot more people that just bought the guitar because everyone starts, Eric Clapton bought a guitar one day. Everyone starts and only a few people get to the expertise. So it's like a pyramid. There's just more beginners in any field.

John Jantsch (18:41): Yeah, I hesitate. We're violent at the end of our time. I hesitate at opening up new still, but how has AI impacted what you do and what marketers do in your view?

Jeff Walker (18:51): Well, obviously we're still in the second inning in the AI revolution, I think. So we don't know where it's going to go. I just have no idea right now where it's at is, I think it's great for ideation.

(19:10): It is absolutely amazing. I've spent my life over the last 30 years becoming a very good copyright. I'm really good at putting words together that convince people to move forward with me. And those words might be delivered via an email, via a blog post, via social media or a script that I say on video. And it's something I do I'm great at, I'm proud of, but it's not necessarily an easy thing to do. I've spent three decades getting better at it, but right now you can use AI and cut out the first 80% of that. So I think it makes it a lot.

John Jantsch (19:50): You can tell it to write like Gary Halbert

Jeff Walker (19:54): And it won't write like Gary Halbert. In fact, John, just in the last week I was going back and reading the old Gary Halbert letters. For those of you don't know, Gary Halbert's, one of the legends of copywriting. He's passed away quite a number of years ago now, but one of the absolute legends. But I think AI can get you the first 80% there. AI can help you design a course. AI can help you brainstorm hooks, AI can help you brainstorm lead magnets. It's just it's

John Jantsch (20:23): Pain points,

Jeff Walker (20:25): Right? Get to know your avatar. Yeah,

John Jantsch (20:28): I've signed it really good at, it's terrible at creating original content in my view right now, but it's pretty good at repackaging your good original content. And so for me, for a lot of marketers, you start with something really good. And now because we want to maybe or make sense for us, participate in a lot of different platforms, you can actually take that original content and make it through the podcast. But again, you can't tell it, write me a 700 word blog post on X or it'll be pretty garbage.

Jeff Walker (20:58): But something a lot of people struggle with is avatar research avatars, your ideal client. And because a lot of us are more advanced, if you are the guitarist who's this amazing guitarist now, and you're trying to remember what it was like to be a newbie because you want to teach some newbies, it's hard to remember what it's like. But you can go to AI and ask AI what it's like to be a newbie and what the concerns are and what the hopes and dreams and fears are. And it's really good at that.

John Jantsch (21:26): And I think the hopes and courage and dreams, when I picked up the guitar, had more to do with Patty McCormick than learning how to play the guitar. A lot of junior high guitarists. Right,

Jeff Walker (21:36): Right.

John Jantsch (21:37): Well, Jeff, it was awesome catching up with you. Where can people find more about your work and certainly pick up a copy of the updated revised launch?

Jeff Walker (21:46): The book is called Launch. It's available anywhere books are sold, including Amazon, and there's all the different types of versions there. Then you can find more about the product launch formula at product launch com. I've always got all kinds of great free resources there for you to have.

John Jantsch (22:05): Yeah, and depending upon when you're listening to this, I know you have a new launch of PFL coming up, and we will let people know where that is. But again, following you listening to this, you've can find the latest and greatest.

Jeff Walker (22:18): John, this is great. Thank you.

John Jantsch (22:20): My pleasure. Hopefully we'll run into one of these days out there on Highway 50.

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